think of george h.w. bush. that's when he called himself pro-choice and ran for president calling reagan's presidency voodoo economics. he spent the neck eight years serving the president. five other republicans ran against bush in 1988 each claiming to be a more worthy reagan heir. al gore's path in 2000 was even cleaner. the clinton white house helped him clear out the democratic field leaving him only to face bill bradley. it was the most boring democratic primary. joe biden needs to catch some breaks, but if he wants to run for president in 2016 as badly as i think he does, i'd say he's an undervalued bet right now. especially if hillary says no. okay. that does it for "the cycle." ari never an unvalued bet is

sitting in for martin today. >> thanks, guys. i'm in for martin bashir who's out sick. america today faced a moment of truth on guns. ch ♪ >> we must do something. >> law-abiding gun owners will not accept blame for the acts of violent or deranged criminals. >> in states that require background checks for every handgun sale, 38% fewer women are shot. >> every woman deserves a fighting chance. >> this time must be different. >> there should have been a hearing just like this right after your wife, one of our own member of congress, was shot. >> background checks will never be universal because criminals will never submit to that. >> you missed that point completely. and i think it's basic. >> senator, i think you missed -- >> let there be order! >> we can't have a totally armed

society. >> americans are counting on you. thank you. ♪ >> the time for speeches and press conferences has ended. today for the nirs time since the mass shootings in newtown, congress took action on gun regulations. the senate convened hearings to consider new laws to counter gun violence. the witnesses and attendees included safety experts, second amendment advocates, and survivors of recent shootings. as soon as the hearing was gavelled into session, an unannounced appearance by gabby giffords who was shot in the head two years ago underscored the stakes. >> too many children are dying. too many children. we must do something.

>> giffords was joined by her husband mark kelly. he explained why the couple decided to start an organization devoted to gun regulation. >> gabby is one of roughly 100,000 victims of gun violence in america each and every year. one of our messages is simple. thebred and complexity of gun violence is great, but it's not an excuse for inaction. >> president obama would later meet with giffords and kelly at the white house. but the rest of washington has not been as welcoming. nra chief wayne lapierre who's expressed some sympathy for the victims also told the senate he has no interest in collaborating even on laws that restrict the gun access of convicted criminals or the mentally unstable. lapierre resit rated that the nra still opposes basic background check rules. that puts him at odds with the constituency he claims to represent. nine in ten gun owners support

background checks. >> let's be honest. background checks will never be universal because criminals will never submit to them. >> many policy makers, however, object to that logic which is basically an argument for scrapping post of the penal code. and the top cop from baltimore county pushed back on the nra's view. >> the best way to stop a bad guy from getting a gun in the first place is a good background check. >> while all the senators examined for preventing gun violence, news of another shooting was reported this afternoon. three people were shot at a business center in phoenix. and the suspect currently remains at large. it's another reminder that any action or inaction on capitol hill. let's get to our panel. julian epstein and stephen barton. a survivor of the aurora shooting. thank you both for being here. >> good to be with you. >> stephen, i want to start with

you. you attended today's hearing. senator blumenthal at one point mentioned you by name. and affirming the sandy hook promise to honor those lost by working to curb this gun violence. he put to wayne lapierre a question and a thought. take a listen to this response. >> senator, there is not a law-abiding firearms owner across this united states that wasn't torn to pieces by what happened in sandy hook. they just don't believe that their constitutional right to own a firearm and the fact they can protect their family with a firearm resulted in the problem. >> stephen, i wanted to give you a chance to respond to that. >> i mean, it's frankly no surprise to me that wayne lapierre wouldn't commit to taking this promise that is devoted to finding common sense solutions to violence in our society. i mean, there's a big difference between, you know, the people that wayne lapierre was talking

about. the rank and file members of the nra and him and his gun lobby buddies. that was fully on display this afternoon during the hearing. >> julian, what do you make of that? this notion has been discussed at length. the constituency that we talked about in the open that the nra claims to represent and what stephen is talking about. which is other people who own guns but have a different view of the road ahead. >> well, i think it's very clear through a number of different things we've learned since the newtown tragedy that wayne lapierre represents the interests of gun manufacturers, not of gun owners. i think it's clear there's a lot of daylight between the two. one of the things that became clear today in the hearing, i think, was that lapierre's credibility is quickly evapor e evaporating. even amongst republicans who are squeamish about the lunatic things this guy has said from time to time. not just going after the president's children. not just the idea we ought to be

marketing assaults to 10-year-old kids. when chairman leahy today exposed the fact lapierre is opposing closing of loopholes that in 1999 he supported, i think he's becoming increasingly the lobbyist that people are not taking seriously. as a colleague said to me, he's becoming like the sacha baron cohen of this debate. so i think that was clear that lapierre is in trouble in terms of his credibility on the hill. and i think with republicans although that may not be showing as it will. we will get a universal background check. it seems clear there's an emerging consensus on that. if that's all we get, i think this is going to be a disappointing exercise. as important as universal background checks are, there are lots of crimes with guns that are committed that do not necessarily involve people that would have been picked up by background checks. not people with criminal records or records of mental instability or records of being a terrorist. and the public is still overwhelmingly supporting going after assault clips and assault

weapons. so i think it's very clear that the people that want to get something done are going to need to buck up this debate and going to need to take this case to the people particularly parents, teachers, and law enforcement. and we should not settle for universal background checks. they are very, very important. but there are other things we have to do if we really want to prevent the kind of tragedies we're seeing. >> julian, just to drill down on what you said. why do you think lapierre has changed position on background checks? >> i remember in 1999, this is an interesting point we should drill down on. i was the chief council for the democrats for that hearing when he testified. and he testified he was fore closing some loopholes particularly because of what happened at columbine. then he carefully when we put a number of proposals on the floor, he fought it. so he was very two faced at that time. so i think he is trying to calibrate what is a very -- what is very, very high disapproval rates he has.

and i think will begin to impute to the nra. he has a pr disaster on his hands. he's trying to deal with that. not very well. he's made one misstep after the next. >> julian, you're hitting an important point from the way that congress works. which is people want to support whatever they think they won't actually have to vote on or won't become law. that's the easiest thing to support as a distraction. stephen, i want to play one other interesting thing we heard from mark kelly today in the hearing which you attended. take a listen to this response regarding the idea of putting more armed guards in schools which of course has been a big claim of certain second amendment advocates. >> from my experience of being shot at and what that actually feels like and how chaotic it is, i would suspect that not many members of this panel or in this room for that matter have been in any kind after a fire fight. it is chaos. >> you have been the the room. and speaking as someone with that experience, which many of

us can't even imagine, what's your take on this policy issue? >> i mean, he hit the nail on the led. as someone who vividly remembers being in the same room, you know, 20 feet away from someone wielding an ar-15 with a hundred-round drum magazine clip, you know, i don't doubt that having security officers in schools is -- will add some security, some measure of security. but it's really a misdirection of resources. we can do such a better job as chief johnson said ensuring that the bad guy with the gun doesn't get the gun in the first place. and, you know, that involves strengthening our background checks system and adding records into the system as wayne lapierre supports. but more and more importantly been that it's about extending those checks to all sales. not just sales at gun shows but also all private sales. we have the empirical evidence that supports, you know, the safety that this brings about.

states that already go beyond federal law and close this loophole through permitting or through other methods. you see a decrease in domestic violence, crimes, murders. you see a decrease in interstate trafficking. guns being exported outside the borders of those states i mean, we know it works. and have known it works since the brady bill was passed before that. >> right. and we know -- just with the limited time left i would add to your point that 40% of the arms trafficking happening through that so-called loophole without any checks. i want to give julian a quick last word. running out of time. but if you listened to the hearing today what you heard is on the politics a lot. why do republicans seem to invoke the constitution so much more often than their colleagues on the other side of the aisle? >> well, i think democrats are beginning to make it clear that the second amendment according to the supreme court and heller and the case dealing with the corporation, but really speaks only to the right to hold a h d

handgun inside your home. in that case the court and justice scalia invited regulations on things much of which the obama administration is talking about. i think it's clear the second amendment arguments are poor when addressing this legislation. two your earlier point which i think was very good, ari, and you know this from working in the senate. the reason the republicans were so effective in 1999 in preventing the congress bill from coming to the floor is because many democrats were conspireing with them to do it. this time that's not the case. so if republicans now want to obstruct things like background checks, assault clips, assault weapons, they're going to be left out there to hang on their own. and there are many districts where the numbers we've been talking about, many republican congressional districts where those numbers hold. this will be a test of the progressive movement and moderate republicans to begin to use that public pressure and to martial it to effect change. if we can't do it here, i think it's a bad implication with other legislation.

i think we will be able to do it here if the effort is focused. >> the mark you put down is important. we'll look at that later with a democrat harry reid who fought the assault weapons ban in previous interrations of this fight. thank you sfr spending time with us today on this. next up, the president's popularity is on the rise. but will it tumble with some of these fights over guns and immigrati immigration? stay with us. >> it's good to see you again. i guess we tangled -- what was it 18 years ago? you look pretty good actually. ♪ excuse me, sir i'm gonna have to ask you to power down your little word game. i think your friends will understand. oh no, it's actually my geico app...see? ...i just uh paid my bill. did you really? from the plane? yeah, i can manage my policy, get roadside assistance, pretty much access geico 24/7.

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president obama has outlined a second term agenda that requires changing minds in washington. on gun regulation and immigration, the president has to turn some intangible political capital into results on the hill. first off an upbeat inauguration, the president not only has high favorability ratings. that has made some conservatives pretty nervous. >> i don't know that there's any stopping this. it's up to me and fox news. and i don't think fox news is that invested in this. but there's not -- i don't think there's any republican opposition to this of any majority consequence of size. we'll have to wait and see and find out. >> so far so good for immigration reformers, but today some card carrying members of the conservative media establishment came to rush's rescue. national review released a major

resistance and criticism of this immigration deal. in a lead editorial titled "a pointless amnesty" the magazine says it's far from obvious there should be a path to citizenship. the editorial also casts a policy debate over undocumented workers which includes leading republicans like senators mccain and rubio. as a curious domain where law enforcement authorities feel they must negotiate the most concessionary terms and conditions with those who are breaking law. we welcome msnbc contributor marie teresa comar and friend to the show. welcome to you both. >> hi, karen. >> his all around. i do want to start with you, karen. you know washington inside and out. should we have whiplash? we started this week with bipartisan progress, limbaugh in

retreat, and rubio talking about how 40% of undocumented workers came here legally and deserve our respect. so what gives? >> well, look. i think we're going to see more of this along the way. i think the most important thing is for the president and democrats to remain consistent in their messaging because that's clearly if you look at the poll numbers, not only is it what's working, but it's what the american people agree with. so much of what the president is talking about is echoed by the american people themselves. and so i think that the key thing is let the folks on the right do what they're going to do. let them kind of fight it out amongst themselves. while we kind of keep moving forward. i think that is a better strategy than worrying about when they're attacking each other. >> right. well, maria, i want to look at the culture of this, not just the politics. we're going to put up on the screen something you may have seen. a quote that was popular from the president's recent remarks on immigration where he talks about the fact we are a nation of immigrants.

just today the white house released this, basically an image people can tweet and share. i think it goes to something i think they want to transcend politics. and that is the idea that if you are american as it says in that headline and if you share american values, then basically the buy in here is respect people including undocumented workers towards a solution. which is different than being bogged down in triggers and politics, et cetera. do you think they're making headway on this is a cultural and american premise to get action here? >> something the president said -- one of the pieces of his speech yesterday was what makes someone an american is not blood or birth but allegiance. i think that resonated so deeply with so many folk who is are second or third generations. people saying my great grandparents came to this country. the moment they stood on the

soil and said i'm here for the opportunity and entrepreneurship. rubio recognizes that in order to win the latino vote, they not only need to pass comprehensive immigration we form but have to change the rhetoric on the right to become an inclusive party. they have to tone down the rhetoric and be less hateful and say we're changing, america's changing, how do we embrace it? and that's one of the reason rubio is moving forward. i think what the president is doing is reminding americans of what our roots are. but like karen said, the majority of americans regardless of political stripes do believe the immigration system is broken. they want people to come out of the shadows. and they want to make sure they know who their neighbor is. and they want to make sure that there's a -- you're making a case for national security. so it's basically asking the extreme right of the republican party to come and be recognized where they are with the times. >> right. well, karen, the white house

officials i heard from this week were very adamant that they want to try to get a conversation going about how much progress has been made. they don't really want people making fun of republicans for changing their positions. as one person put it, the whole point was to get them to change their positions in the second term. but i don't think the entire progressive community is going along with that to my mind yet. or am i wrong about that? >> no. i think you're right about that. i think the more this conversation proceeds, i mean i think it's correct. the republicans have got their message frame right. tough and fair. they've got a good coalition on their side to help move this forward. it's republicans and democrats working together. there's going to be, you know, some kind of carping on both sides. but again, part of -- when both of the far ends are kind of doing that, that actually helps move people in the center more to the center and forward hopefully. >> exactly. well, i wish we had more time for this. i want to thank you both for

gives us the scene from washington. >> thank you so much, ari. >> take care. >> absolutely. coming up, much more on the call for action on gun safety in this country. we're going to stay on the story. please stay with us. living with moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis

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scan me. stride on, pale-legged, short-shorts guy. ♪ on monday on our program, we aired a portion of a hearing where we heard from neil heslin whose 6-year-old son jesse was killed at sandy hook elementary school. we received a number of comments over the last few days so we're going to play the relevant portion in full. >> i don't know how many people have young children or children, but just try putting yourself i'm in or these other parents that are here. and having a child that you l t lost. it's not a good feeling. it's not a good feeling to look at your child laying in a casket or looking at your child with a

bullet wound to the forehead. it's a real sad thing. i wish -- i ask if there's anybody in this room who can give me one reason or challenge this question, why anybody in this room needs to have an assault -- one of these assault-style weapons or military weapons or high-capacity clips. and not one person can answer that question. >> second amendment shall not be infringed! >> all right. >> shall not infringe our rights. >> please no comments while mr. heslin is speaking or we'll clear the room. please continue. >> anybody -- anyway.

we're all entitled to our own opinion. and i respect their opinions and their thoughts. but i wish they'd respect mine and give it a little bit of thought. >> martin and many other who is saw mr. heslin's testimony have called that interruption heckling. some disagree. he wanted you to hear it in full so you can draw your own conclusion. ♪

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establishment gop. >> why are you saying he's not an american? >> it was in the heat of the campaign. >> a full-on assault to our right on full-on assault. >> a hunting accident involving dick cheney. >> i'm worried we may end up in a situation that does, in fact, threaten the rights of law-abiding americans. >> greatest danger to the second amendment right? extremism from the survivalist wing of the nra. >> too many children are dying. >> 20 kids and six of their teachers were gunned down in their classrooms. >> for women, guns are the great equalizer. >> our eagle child safety program has taught 25 million young children. >> adam lanza stole the guns after murdering his mother. >> young women are speaking out as to why ar-15 weapons are their weapon of choice. >> let's get serious about this.

my comment is how little it has to do with keeping our country safe. >> scary, creepy. >> first bullet went into gabby's head. bullet 13 went into a 9-year-old girl who was very interested in democracy. >> they don't hit the elites. they don't hit the criminal. they hit the average hard working tax paying american. >> the time is now. americans are counting on you. >> let's get right to it. we are joined now by krystal ball cohost of "the cycle" and msnbc political analyst richard wolffe executive editor of msnbc.com. thank you for being here. i want to start with you and danielle trotter. she's invoking the constitution, the bill of rights. a feeling that is strong around the country among conservatives but not only conservatives nap these policies are going after rights that were secure bid our founders a long time ago.

she invoked womens rights as sort of the ultimate underlying principle. a lot of people were moved by that. what did you make of that new chapter in this fight? >> well, it's not surprising. it's not surprising there's an interpretation of the second amendment that they take to mean overthrowing government or standing up for tyranny or in this case -- this is part of the nra narrative since the '60s here. it's about protection against criminals. this has been the big shift in the nra, tea party, extreme conservative narrative. which is that we've gone from the hunting, the protecting the family, to this onslaught of criminals mostly coming from the cities, most coming from the riots of the '60s when the nra made a big shift. there are very old deep narratives she was plugging into about the protection of women against criminals. that's where it gets extremely

emotional. and it actually isn't constitutional discussions anymore. >> right. such an important point. because sort of the myth making here is gone from davy crockett to dirty harry. krystal, i want to have you listen to something miss trotter said which is on this point. let's take a listen. >> as a woman i think it's very important not to place undue burdens on our second amendment right to choose to defend ourselves. >> so krystal, as a woman -- >> yes. >> right to choose -- >> yes. >> undue burden. what we heard from miss trotter is really an indication of feminist principles to uphold gun rights for specifically women. >> yeah. it's an attempt to use a liberal argument to advocate for no background checks, no assault weapons ban, the right to have an extended magazine. i also think there's an element of a caricature of a right wing

republican caricature dying. the caricature has been democrats that want to take everyone's guns. they want to ban all guns. they want to make it so you cannot exercise your second amendment right at all. what you're seeing now as we're getting to the specifics of the policies, people saying background checks just makes sense. women can have guns if they want to have them, they just have to go through a background check. they should have to go through a background check. that's just common sense. does a woman really need an extended magazine to be able to defend herself properly if that's what she wants to do? and there's also an element, too, the increase -- there's massive increase risk to women who are in violent situations in their homes if there is a gun present in the home. so there's that element as well. >> right. so there's the serious part which is what we know from the data. and there's what links back to what richard was talking about which is it's sort of nonsensical. it only works at a great distance. you say rights for women and women are the victims of many different types of crimes in

this country. that is a real issue for congress to focus on. and yet the main things that were on the table in today's hearing were not about actually carrying guns. >> right. we're not -- if the premise was we're going to take away all handguns, then her argument might have been forceful and more valid. but that's not what anyone has suggested. background checks or protecting women from violence are not effected by what she was mentioning there. so the background check piece of it, you can still protect yourself. the bigger question for protection of women is having a gun in a home where there is domestic violence leads to terrible outcomes for women. the real threat to women's health in a gun situation is not from a criminal busting down the door. >> and interestingly, miss trotter i understand is also opposed to reauthorization of the violence against women act. so on the one hand she's saying women are victims, you know, we

have to be able to protect ourselves. the gun is the great equal iesser. on the other hand she says we no longer need this protection we've had since 1994 which has been successful in helping provide resources for women in violence situations. so there's quite a hypocrisy there. >> and to go to the politics of it which is where a lot of gun battles go back to, do you think that democrats are making enough hay out of the sort of contradiction you just said? >> well, she just testified today. we haven't seen that connection made yet. the big takeaway was not so much her but gabby giffords. her emotional testimony was so incredible, so courageous, so visceral. you know, it really hit home. she's certainly a much more compelling witness on this than either wayne lapierre or gayle trotter. >> i want to go back to the founders and fighting tyranny in

this gun debate. let's take a listen. >> senator, i think without any doubt if you look at why our founding fathers put it there, they had lived under the tyranny of king george and they wanted to make sure that these free people in this new country would never be subjugated again. >> i don't want to own a gun to attack my government. that's not what i think a legitimate purpose is. >> first of all, a that's just -- >> lindsey graham who's running for re-election in south carolina. i mean, you know, the nra has become the home for people who want to protect themselves from some kind of fashs tyranny which they think is imminent. hearing senator graham make the obvious point that that's not what the constitution was written about. >> this thing about lindsey

graham, if you agree with him it's great the way he talks. i mean, he just basically took as you said richard, one of the founding, dramatic, you know, well-funded core arguments of the nra which he has to work with and say that's not what i'm into. >> not so much, yeah. >> isn't that the deal, krystal? i mean, who is looking to handguns or even the military style assault weapons to take on the largest military in the world that has weapons and drones and tanks. what are we talking about? >> there is a group that does feel they have their weapons to protect themselves from the government. there is a small fringe group that does think that way. but it goes more to the basis of the nra's argument that any limit on the type of gun that you can own, how many you can own, how many you can buy at one time whether you have to have any background checks or have your name on a list if you own a weapon, that anything like that constitutes an infringement of

second amendment right that is guaranteed to us. and as you know, the second amendment is not an absolute just like the right to free speech is not an absolute. there can be reasonable restrictions. >> that would include fully automatic weapons, right? if you followed wayne lapierre's argument, it means every house would own a machine gun. >> krystal, last question. where do we go from here? i think one thesis you can take apart is the sudden invocation of women's rights and i think arguably some very off-the-wall arguments suggest a nervousness in that community. what happens next? >> it's interesting to see how the argument has shifted. it has been for a long time democrats and gun control advocates on the defensive trying to make arguments from a conservative lens. now we're seeing the reverse. we're seeing arguments through a liberal lens. i have been skeptical anything real will happen in this congress. my skepticism is lessening.

i think there's a chance we could see something like universal background checks. we now have a bipartisan group in the senate that's working on background check legislation. so that's an area that i'm particularly hopeful about. >> your skepticism is lessening. is your optimism increasing? >> yes. in the same amounts. >> okay. we're going to take your temperature next time. >> thank you to both of you for being here. coming up, john kerry said good-bye to the senate today. we'll look at the big shoes he has to fill at the state department. stay with us. ♪ hungry for the best? it's eb. want to give your family the very best in taste, freshness, and nutrition? it's eb. want to give them more vitamins, omega 3s, and less saturated fat? it's eb. eggland's best eggs. eb's. the only eggs that make better taste and better nutrition... easy. eggland's best eggs. better taste. better nutrition.

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thanks for being here. >> thanks, ari. >> let's start with this issue of gun control, of course. gabby giffords at the white house. probably a very significant experience for people there close to it and the president. how does that meeting fit into the larger white house strategy right now? >> well, i think that you are starting to see president obama's strategy trying to get stiffer gun laws enacted unfold part of that tactic includes meeting with those who have a stake in this issue like gabby giffords and mark kelly. of course they have a pact so they are collaborating to get out a message. i also think you're going to see president obama hit the road, get out of d.c., get out of the kwhoois and take his message to the people. of course he's trying to get stiffer gun laws enacted which include reenstating the ban on assault weapons, limiting high-capacity magazines. we saw joe biden in virginia last week doing the same thing. he had a round table discussion about that. but then there's sort of this

second track. they will be working in conjunction with the retooled version of the campaign which is organizing for action. they will be trying to mobilize people around this issue at the grassroots levels. the question is how much capital do they want to spend on this. some are going to be tough to get through congress. >> organizing for action which is now headed by jim messina has only been doing what broadly listed at risk building. that may reflect to some degree a timing question at this point. but i want to get you on one other issue while we have you here for a little bit of time. that's on immigration. the president giving two interviews today. he's got a big speech coming up. of course, he had one on tuesday. where does the white house go from here? the notion they're making progress earlier in the show, we were talking about that. people like rush limbaugh has been widely reported softening

the rhetoric. what's your sense of people close to the white house on what they need to do now as the right sort of still marinates in this decision? >> well, i think that the tactic is slight different when it comes to immigration. yesterday you heard president obama really embrace that bipartisan plan that came out of the senate. but at the same time saying if there isn't action quickly that he's going to put forward his own plan. identify been speaking to officials here who say right now it is important for the president to take a bit of a step back and let this bipartisan process play itself out. because for the first time in a long time there does seem to be some movement on this issue of immigration reform. particularly because of the politics a lot of people think are right right now. >> right. well, kristen, thanks for the update from the white house. >> absolutely. thanks. stay with us. much more ahead. ♪ all stations come over to mission a for a final go.

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john kerry gave his last speech in the senate today joking his colleagues sent him packing by confirming his nomination to secretary of state. there is no time for on the job training here. the u.s. is concerned about civil unrest in egypt and escalating revolution in syria. where today israeli planes attacked near damascus. in his farewell address, he reflected on the training for his new role. >> what i've seen and heard and learned in traveling across our country as a senator from massachusetts has prepared me more for my travels to other countries than any travel to any foreign capital. >> michael o'hahnlan. thank you for being here. let's start with kerry's thesis

which is one hillary clinton basically invoked when she started the role. that a lot of domestic politics and a lot of travel and fights can prepare you. do you think that's the case given the agenda that's on here for the second term? >> to some extent, for sure. it could remind a secretary of state that the country doesn't want any big new foreign military campaigns for one thing. and that's got to be a powerful message in the mind of anybody who's contemplating whether we need to use force to deal with iran's nuclear program or forced to deal with the civil war in syria. so it's very sobering to know where the country is at. and you combine that with a trillion dollar deficit, and you've got constraints on foreign american policy. but also opportunities. >> let me draw you out on syria. the israeli attack along the border just today. where does an incoming secretary of state come in with the hot conflicts that have a fair

amount of confusion about them. >> on syria, i think that what we're seeing is the slow motion failure of our previous policy. not that i've been a critic of it myself. i'm not saying it's easy to find the right policy, but we were hoping the opposition would get strong enough to overthrow assad promptly without any help. however, we could be settling into a long stalemate. i doubt the israeli air strike is going to change that much. so we have to consider now are we going to allow this stalemate just to, you know, move onward. are we going to work hard on the russia angle to get russia to agree to some plan with us? or are we going to do what we need to do to strengthen the opposition and do combined strikes? all these things need to be reassessed. because the previous policy i'm getting close to saying has failed. and it was a reasonable thing to try, a reasonable thing to hope for. but the opposition has not been strong enough to win this one on its own.

i'm not sure an indefinite stalemate is in our interest. >> you talk about failed stalemates. a lot of people point to guantanamo as a failed stalemate for this administration as well as the last. it's prufed to be an intractable problem. detention issues are not easily resolved. something that flew below the radar this week as i'm sure you noticed, is that the state department is simply closing the office that was in charge of diplomacy related to shutting guantanamo. they've now shut that office and reassigned who was in charge of it. that is one of the classic -- john kerry now has to go around the world and basically explain and defend to our allies in meetings why it seems that in the second term closing gitmo is taking a lower priority. how does he do that? >> well, you're right. it's a big diplomatic problem. it's an unpopular american

policy. however, i think we've frankly handled the policy okay. i know president obama did continue to manage the process of having most of the detainees released or otherwise dealt with. as you know the number there today is a very modest fraction of the total that was there in the first place. i think we need to play up that fact more. and also play up that we have created certain kinds of due process. it's not normal american civil law, but due process to reassess the state of each detainee. i think that should go a long way towards satisfying any fair minded view. that's not going to satisfy people around the world. so as you point out, it's a diplomatic challenge. it's damage control. but i'm not sure we can do much better than that. >> do you think then though it's for the president to hand off even a reduced number. but a reduced number of detainees that's been there to the next president? >> i actually do. i think in the grand scheme of this war on terror where

thousands of tens of thousands of people's lives are at risk all time. we're trying to help afghanistan with 30 million people avoid falling into a civil war as we leave. we're trying to help syria with 22 million people end a civil war that the fate of 50 or 60 detainees at guantanamo while it's important and we have to treat them fairly doesn't need to be seen as our top foreign policy challenge. >> i appreciate you sharing your view on everything with us today. >> thank you very much. >> all right. we will be right back. >> standing here at this desk that once belonged -- at this desk that once belonged to president kennedy and to ted kennedy. i can't help but be reminded that even our nation's greatest leaders and all the rest of us

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